TAPE NUMBER: 1

[SHOW: NTL]

[SLUG: THE PRESIDENT'S MAN]

[AIRDTE: 06/25/03]

[AIRTME: 23:35 - 00:05]

[ANCH: TED KOPPEL]

[ANCHLOC: WASHINGTON, DC USA]

[STORY: NIGHTLINE]

[CORR:]

[CORLOC:]

[graphics: June 25 2003]

[1]23:35:02 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I would have focused on al-Qaeda more than I would have focused on Iraq, if it had been my decision.

[1]23:35:08 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

He says the United States is not winning the war on terrorism.

[1]23:35:14 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

The manpower and the money that I thought were necessary for Afghanistan were simply not there.

[1]23:35:21 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

That the war in Iraq is hampering that effort. What you're charging is that the Administration, for whatever reasons, has decided to do it on the cheap. My words, not yours. But that's essentially what you're saying.

[1]23:35:33 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I am saying that, that's correct.

[1]23:35:36 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

It's so bad, he says, that he quit his job at the White House and went to work for the opposition, the political opposition.

[1]23:35:44 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I resigned because I was deeply concerned about the policy and did not see that policy changing.

[graphics: The President's Man]

[1]23:35:49 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

Tonight, "The President.s Man," a conversation with Rand Beers.

[graphics: ABC NEWS: Nightline]

[1]23:35:56 ANNOUNCER

From ABC News, this is "Nightline.. Reporting from Washington, Ted Koppel.

[1]23:36:13 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Rand Beers, whom you will meet in just a moment, has an impeccable resume. A life of government service that began with two tours in Vietnam with the Marine Corps and then more than 30 years, most of those at the State Department, working in international narcotics and law enforcement affairs, intelligence, and counter-terrorism. Most recently, until about three months ago, he served on the National Security Council at the White House, as a special assistant to the President for combating terrorism. He had also worked for the National Security Council under presidents Reagan, George Bush the elder, and Bill Clinton. Like thousands of other public servants in this city, especially those working in the field of intelligence, Mr. Beers might have left office in near total anonymity were it not for the manner in which he left his last post. He was so frustrated by what he perceives as the Bush Administration's ineffectiveness at combating terrorism, at home and abroad, that he quit. A few weeks after he resigned from the White House, Rand Beers took another step that was bound to get some attention. He signed on as National Security Adviser to the presidential campaign of Senator John Kerry, currently one of the leading Democratic candidates for President. Mr. Beers has done a couple of newspaper interviews, he has testified before Congress, but this is his first television interview since he left the government.

[1]23:37:37 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) And I suppose the first question has to be, did you know when you left that you were going to be working for John Kerry?

[1]23:37:42 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

No. It certainly wasn't clear in my own mind. I was deeply disturbed about what was going on in our counter-terrorism policy. And I really needed some time and space to sort of figure out what I wanted to do next.

[1]23:37:54 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) What was it that most disturbed you?

[1]23:37:56 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I was concerned both about what was happening internationally in places like Afghanistan and what was happening domestically in the homeland security area. I didn't work on Iraq. I certainly observed what was going on in Iraq. But principally I was concerned about what was happening in Afghanistan or wasn't happening, and what was happening or wasn't happening at home.

[1]23:38:16 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) One of your previous colleagues has told me that his concern, it may have also been yours, is that long before most of us became aware of the fact that this Administration had ambitions to invade Iraq, the decision was made not to put as much money, manpower, effort, into Afghanistan because it was going to be needed for Iraq. Was that, indeed, your experience?

[1]23:38:42 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I can't say whether it was reserved for that purpose. But it was certainly clear to me that the manpower and the money that I thought were necessary for Afghanistan were simply not there. And it was a very frustrating experience for me.

[1]23:38:56 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) And what do you think the consequence of that has been?

[1]23:38:59 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

Well, I think that in the early days, one of the consequences was that the attack in Tora Bora ended up using surrogate forces and standoff US forces when US combat forces involved directly in that operation might actually have captured Osama Bin Laden, who we now know clearly was there from subsequent information which he provided to us. More recently, we have ...

[1]23:39:25 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Let me stop you, when you say "he," you mean Osama Bin Laden provided information? In what fashion?

[1]23:39:31 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

No, I mean, he's publicly spoken about his presence at Tora Bora and his escape from Tora Bora after the Americans' attack.

[1]23:39:39 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) And why did we stand back? Why were our forces not used at that time?

[1]23:39:43 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

It was my impression, and I was not present at the time, but certainly what I have understood to be the case was that we preferred to use surrogate forces because it was an easier way to run the operation, there would be fewer casualties, that would be US casualties.

[1]23:39:59 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) And you think that was what, a political decision?

[1]23:40:03 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I'm not in a position to say whether that was a political or a military decision.

[1]23:40:07 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Well, I mean, if it had been a military decision, the assumption would have to be that indigenous forces would do a better job of capturing Osama and his fellow leaders than American forces, right?

[1]23:40:18 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

That's one way to put it, yes.

[1]23:40:20 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) And that doesn't seem very logical, does it?

[1]23:40:22 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

No, it does not.

[1]23:40:23 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

So, one is left then with the conclusion that it, if it wasn't done for military reasons, then it would've had to be done for political reasons.

[1]23:40:33 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I'm simply not in a position to confirm that.

[1]23:40:36 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) You also said, a moment ago, that you were more concerned about, or also gravely concerned about, what was being done or not being done in the area of counter-terrorism here at home. There's certainly been a lot of "harrumphing" about what's being done here at home. I mean, a lot of attention paid to Governor Ridge's new department, to the money that has been allocated by Congress. What more could have been or should have been done, you think?

[1]23:41:08 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

Well, I think, firstly, there is an inadequate amount of funding. There was a report about the House passing the fiscal year 2004 budget, yesterday. And the main point of the article is that most everybody, expect for the Administration, believes that there was an inadequate funding level in that budget. People voted for it because the alternative was not acceptable, to have no budget. That has been, to my knowledge, a continuous perspective that the Administration has had. They've been unable or unwilling to ask for sufficient funds to actually do the job. And then, they haven't followed through with the programs that actually would turn that money into activities in as rapid and forceful a -fashion as I think that it should. One of the phrases that is used often within Washington is "business as usual.. And I'm really concerned that this Administration, despite its rhetoric, has given the homeland security function a "business as usual" mantra.

[1]23:42:20 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

There's another aspect to this, which I want to get into in a moment. and another place where money is being spent to this day, in large measure, and that's the war against Iraq. The degree to which defense against terrorism here at home came into conflict with that war, that subject when we come back.

[graphics: Nightline]

[1]23:42:41 ANNOUNCER

This is ABC News "Nightline.. Brought to you by ...

[commercial break]

[1]23:45:11 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) And I'm back once again with Rand Beers, who until just a little over three months ago, was a special assistant to President Bush for counter-terrorism. You indicated that, that Iraq was not part of your brief. Is it your impression, however, that because the decision was made to go to war against Iraq, and because that has already cost billions of dollars and will cost billions more, that that is also one of the reasons that we're not spending enough on counter-terrorism here at home?

[1]23:45:40 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

It's certainly true that the costs of fighting a war in Iraq as well as Afghanistan and homeland security, all together represent an enormous cost on the treasury. It's part of the national security function. And in some ways, yes, that's exactly right. Those costs crowd out one another in some people's minds.

[1]23:46:01 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) So, it becomes a question, then, of the competing interests of the United States. You can't do everything with limited resources. This Administration, prior to the war against Iraq, was making the point that there was a strong feeling within the Administration that there was a relationship between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda. And that one of the reasons cited for going to war against Iraq was precisely the reason of counter-terrorism. Was that a legitimate charge?

[1]23:46:33 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

The intelligence that I saw, and I'm not going to comment on it specifically, certainly didn't move me to come to the same conclusion.

[1]23:46:40 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Since we already have questions, now, I mean, you don't have to comment here in terms of intelligence. Weapons of mass destruction have not yet been found. If, indeed, weapons of mass destruction have not been found, we have to come to one of two conclusions. Either they weren't there to begin with or they were there to begin with and they have disappeared, perhaps even fallen into other hands. Do you consider the, the danger that those weapons might now be in the hands of the very people we were trying to prevent them from reaching, could have happened?

[1]23:47:14 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I think we have to consider that as a real possibility. And it is what is most disturbing to me about not having located the weapons of mass destruction.

[1]23:47:25 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Say it in terms of your own words, if you would. What do you think, I mean, are you convinced from what you did see or what you -did hear that there were weapons of mass destruction to begin with?

[1]23:47:36 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I thought there were weapons of mass destruction to begin with. I understood that there were certain caveats, as we say in the bureaucratic framework, but that there was so much information about the size of the arsenal that there must have been weapons of mass destruction there.

[1]23:47:58 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) So, they have either been hidden so cunningly that 140,000 troops, thus far, haven't been able to find them. It's a possibility they will find them.

[1]23:48:06 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

Yes, it is.

[1]23:48:07 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Or, what?

[1]23:48:09 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

Or they were destroyed by Saddam immediately before the war, or a short period before the war, and we simply didn't know that. Or, as you indicated, they've fallen into the hands of people that cause us even more problems.

[1]23:48:24 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Did you, did you resign, ultimately, because you were just exhausted or because you really felt that you were unable to convince the people that you had to convince that they were moving inadequately or in the wrong direction or however you want to phrase it?

[1]23:48:45 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I resigned because I was deeply concerned about the policy and did not see that policy changing. And because I was exhausted trying to make the policy work.

[1]23:48:54 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) If I ask you straight-out, do you think that prior to March of this year, Iraq as it existed, Saddam Hussein and his Baathist party as they existed, represented more of a threat to the United States than whatever other terrorist threats are out there? What would you say?

[1]23:49:15 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I would have focused on al-Qaeda more than I would have focused on Iraq if it had been my decision.

[1]23:49:21 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Because?

[1]23:49:22 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

Because I believe that al-Qaeda is a fundamental threat to the United States. And it is not clear to me whether Saddam had that same degree of threat and imminence.

[1]23:49:33 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) I mean, what you're saying, to use my own phraseology now, and I'm trying to get you to respond to it in that same way. You're saying you think al-Qaeda, what's going on in Afghanistan, was, remain, a greater threat to the national security interests of the United States than Saddam Hussein, as he existed prior to the war? Is that fair?

[1]23:49:56 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I'm saying that, but I'm also conscious that we're talking now in a post-conflict environment. And we certainly know more than we did then.

[1]23:50:05 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) But ...

[1]23:50:06 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

But I still have that same conclusion.

[1]23:50:08 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) I mean, what we have learned since the war, does that make you any less concerned than you before then?

[1]23:50:13 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

No, not at all. In fact, far from it, in the other direction. I think that what we have learned since the war is suggestive that Saddam was less, even less imminent a threat to us than it appeared that he was in the lead-up to the war.

[1]23:50:29 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) We're going to take another short break. Back with Rand Beers in a moment.

[commercial break]

[1]23:53:58 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) And I'm back once again with Rand Beers. Mr. Beers, you must have realized that in deciding to become part of the Kerry campaign, you sort of undermined the purity of your resignation. You will raise questions in people's minds whether that was done, at least in part, for political reasons. Is that a fair question?

[1]23:54:23 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

It's certainly a fair question. And my answer to the question is that I have been part of a number of administrations, which I have served -loyally under my oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. I came to the conclusion that I could not continue to serve but I wanted to remain in the public arena. And rather than operate as an individual, I decided that it was more important to become part of another team and help that team achieve what it would like to achieve, in terms of winning the presidency.

[1]23:54:59 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Just for the sake of argument, let's say that your candidate becomes President of the United States. What is it that he's going to do or be able to do, facing the same economic imperatives that now face President Bush, that this Administration has not done? The amount of money is still going to be the same. If the economy doesn't turn around, the problems are going to be the same. They're still gonna have to clean up the mess in Iraq. They're still gonna have to clean up the mess in Afghanistan. And they're still gonna face all the same threats here at home. What's going to be different?

[1]23:55:32 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

Well, I certainly think that John Kerry can speak for himself on that issue.

[1]23:55:36 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) But you're his adviser.

[1]23:55:38 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

From the things I know he has said and the things that I have talked to him about is that, instead of proceeding as a lone wolf in the international arena, I think you'll see a Kerry presidency that would be much more willing to work with and find friends and allies and keep them on board, in pursuing our goals and objectives. I think that you would find an administration that was more willing to use persuasion, as well as power, and not just rely upon the use of force to solve particular problems. I think you would find an administration that would pay a whole lot more attention and be prepared to devote more resources to homeland security. And on the broader budget issue, I think you would see an administration that is prepared to look at choices and make those choices in different ways than this Administration is making them.

[1]23:56:35 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) As we go through some of these items, on a scale of one to ten, what would you say the security preparations are at our ports?

[1]23:56:44 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I think ...

[1]23:56:44 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) One being the least and ten being the most effective.

[1]23:56:46 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I understand. I think that the security preparations in our ports are a two or a three.

[1]23:56:50 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Really?

[1]23:56:51 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

Yes.

[1]23:56:52 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) So, you think the likelihood that we may be attacked at one of our ports, I mean, given that it's that vulnerable, or is it your view that some of the other items that you listed, our chemical industry for example, on a scale of one to ten.

[1]23:57:05 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

The vulnerabilities that exist at our ports and the knowledge that terrorists have used container cargos to move items of concern, mean that we have to be far more watchful than we are. So, yes, I'm concerned. Will they do it? I can't tell you today that that's exactly how they're going to run an operation. With respect to the chemical industries, my concern is that we have a number of chemical industries in this country that are highly vulnerable to an attack and could have significant to catastrophic results. We need to work with the chemical industry in order to rectify that situation so our population isn't at risk.

[1]23:57:49 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) There is the appearance, with the airline industry at least, that there, something has been done. That things are significantly better now than they were on September 11th, 2001. True or false?

[1]23:58:00 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

It's better than it was on 2001. You saw the article in "The Washington Post," the other day, suggesting that there are still concerns in that area. I think that they are being worked on and attended to. My concern in the airline area, however, is that I think we need to find some kind of a protective device that will reduce the likelihood that a surface-to-air missile, as in the attack, attempt against the Israeli airliner in Mombassa will, in fact, be thwarted.

[1]23:58:31 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Is the Department of Homeland Security a significant step forward? Is the consolidation of all the previous government agencies that now come under that roof, is that a step in the right direction?

[1]23:58:43 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I think that the concept of a Department of Homeland Security is a step in the right direction.

[1]23:58:47 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) The execution?

[1]23:58:48 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

The execution, I think, is, leaves a great deal to be desired. I don't think that the Administration has moved rapidly enough or forcefully enough to bring that together in an effective manner and fund the organization.

[1]23:59:03 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) In your conversation with the -reporter from "The Washington Post," you talked about some feelings that you had as you were looking at the sort of pile of files in your office just before you decided to quit. We're going to come back in just a moment. And I'd like you to tell that story just before we go. Back in a moment.

[graphics: Nightline: Abcnews.com]

[1]23:59:26 ANNOUNCER

To receive a daily e-mail announcement about each evening's "Nightline" and a preview of special broadcasts, logon to the "Nightline" page at abcnews.com.

[commercial break]

[1]00:02:16 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) And back with a final question for Rand Beers. It has to do with that climatic moment, I suppose, when you were in your office and you were looking at the files. And what was it about those files that sort of made you decide, "gotta go"?

[1]00:02:31 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I certainly was known throughout my government career as not having a neat desk. It was never clear. What happened on that particular day is, I came to work and I looked at the piles of files, some of which were current, that I needed to look at right away and some of which had accumulated. And I just realized I didn't have the fortitude, the will, to actually spend the time necessary to do the job that I thought was required in the position that I was in. And I walked away.

[1]00:03:08 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) When you talk about those files, though, I think it's necessary for you to tell us, not precisely but at least generically, what was in those files.

[1]00:03:15 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

They were, almost everyone of them, classified documents, ranging from "confidential" to "top secret" and all kinds of special classifications associated with them.

[1]00:03:26 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) And every one of them indicating a threat to the United States?

[1]00:03:29 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

And every one, in one way or another, concerning either a threat to the United States or a policy set that needed to be reviewed in order to try to deal with those threats.

[1]00:03:40 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) And your feeling at that point was, you weren't up to it or this team wasn't up to it, at least given their, I mean, I have to raise that because, if you walked out because you were tired, that's one thing. If you walked out because you felt the team couldn't handle it ...

[1]00:03:54 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

I felt that the team wasn't handling it and I alone couldn't do what was necessary to try to change that.

[1]00:04:01 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Mr. Beers, I thank you. It's good of you to join us.

[1]00:04:03 RAND BEERS (FORMER BUSH COUNTER-TERRORISM ADVISER)

Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to be here.

[1]00:04:06 TED KOPPEL (ABC NEWS)

(OC) That's our report for tonight. I'm Ted Koppel in Washington. For all of us here at ABC News, good night.

[EOF999]

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